The second guest of our series Musicians who made Turkey?s flamenco history is Mutlu Torun

Ilgaz Benekay : In 60?s, I was 10 or 11 years old. The guitarist Bab?r Ongun is my cousin. We went Taksim. While we were walking to Institute Fran?ais on Istanbul Street, we ran into Mutlu Torun who was walking with Sava? ?ekirge. Since cousin Bab?r knew them, he said hello to them. The weather was very cold, so as I was wearing my coat and gloves, I shook hands with brother Mutlu. He said; ?Never shake hands with people while you are wearing your gloves, this is a principle of courtesy?. This was the first thing I have learned from him. I do not know if you still remember, you were still studying or about to finish studying architecture at the faculty and I was one of your students. I played classical guitar with you. Then I started flamenco style with the method of Emilio Media. You have many sides in life, things to fill maybe more than one life time, for instance you have finished architecture faculty which is today?s Mimar Sinan University.

Mutlu Torun : It was called as State Fine Arts Academy back then?

Ilgaz Benekay : You used to draw for the child magazines, I remember you were a talented draughtsman then, you draw, made calligraphy and wrote notes.

Mutlu Torun : I used to paint and draw a lot before going to Academy. After I was accepted to Academy I met with Zeynep Torun, whose surname was actually Selimoglu back then. She was studying painting. I think I gave up painting afterwards, music influenced me more.

Ilgaz Benekay : I know that you started to play lute. You play classical guitar, flamenco and piano. And then you chose the lute, why?

Mutlu Torun : May I interrupt here, because choosing is not the right word. Let me put it this way, when I was playing one of them, also kept being involved with the others. Or we can say while I was dealing with one style, the others also were with me.

Ilgaz Benekay : Yes, I have told that regarding earning your living. I believe that you chose to play lute because you live in Turkey.

Mutlu Torun : Let?s not say the lute but I preferred being a teacher

Ilgaz Benekay : Yes you have always been a teacher.. You retired from Istanbul Technical University two years ago and you published a very nice lute method book. You are teaching at Hali? University now. Now I would like to ask why you fell in love with flamenco... I am asking this in the sense that you had taken classical guitar education from Andre Polelogostan so while playing classical guitar and also dealing with Turkish music how you became a flamenco fan?

Mutlu Torun : Actually you summarized it. At the beginning of my music life, I started with mandolin and harmonica. When I was in 8?th grade in the elementary school, we had a teacher named Halit Ozan, he is a very important musician. We studied on mandolin with him for one year. But then we did not continue. After mandolin I noticed lute. I just saw it at my aunt?s house. Just in the wardrobe it was hanged. The lute of my aunt?s husband?I started to study with it first and we brought it to Istanbul. At those times when I was exercising on the lute, while I was also playing polyphonic music with mandolin, I remember I was trying to pull two or more strings with my right hand fingers. So what I was trying to do though I was unaware of this technique was playing like a guitar. Also I tried to play Turkish music with mandolin, putting matches between frets to obtain Turkish music sounds. So when I started with the lute, I was so relieved and easily playing Turkish music but at the same time I was trying to play polyphonic music with lute. Afterwards, my family bought a guitar for my cousin Mesut. Now he is living in Edinburgh. On my own, I started exercising on that guitar, I studied about 6 months. I have gone through first volume of Carulli and Carcassi methods because I had already knowledge about notes from my studies on the mandolin. There was a guitarist named Ersin ?nl?soy, he passed away unfortunately. He was my school mate at Istanbul High School. He used to play jazz and pop with his guitar. He has become our national guitarist. He went to represent Turkey at the Balkans Music Festival together with Yurdaer Do?ulu. Upon he gave me the address I directly applied to Andre Polelogos. He said we would start from the very beginning. He said he would write from Pujol and he did. He had a great knowledge about notes. He wrote so well. We started from there.

Ilgaz Benekay : I have seen his hand-written notes at Raffi Aslanyan, you and Sava? ?ekirge.

Mutlu Torun : He used to write for all his students. He was just sitting during the lesson and writing. He used to write so well. His hand writing was so nice. He did not correct what I played much. But he corrected my position and holding the guitar. Then I found another method book, very thin one. I started playing from there. Actually the person he introduced me with flamenco is R?za Ba??ko?lu. He showed me Sabicas and Carlos Montoya from his archive. Nothing much maybe but it was fascinating. Most of all Sabicas impressed me. So in this way I started to feel the flamenco passion. Before R?za Ba??ko?lu, Faz?l Avrak used to play wonderful flamenco pieces. But he was not known as a flamenco guitarist. He was playing classical and also jazz. We can say he was the first flamenco guitarist in Turkey.

Ilgaz Benekay : Is he still alive?

Mutlu Torun : I don?t know if he is still living, I am a bit unfaithful. So we lost each other. I don?t where he is now either. Let me tell you this, there was a magic in flamenco which really impressed me much. Maybe you will tell that I am a Romantic but when I was listening classics, I was not moved deeply where as flamenco shook me inside out. Now I think, it was because I adored Turkish music much, let?s say eastern music or Muslim music. I believe there is a connection between each other. Or at least I felt a great force dragging me to it. That?s the reason why I concentrated on flamenco. At first, I studied classical guitar and then with R?za Ba??ko?lu I met with different aspects of flamenco, like the guitar playing style, the tapping sounds, with its rhythm and cante. On the other hand, everything I said and among the things I listed, I cannot define myself as deep flamenco fan rather I am fanatic of some possibilities which flamenco guitar supplied to me, I don?t know if explain right. The way they use the guitar is fascinating. I cannot say that singing or dancing really attract me, at least not as much as playing. Let?s take the patterns as an example. Or we may say alzapua is an imitation of the pick. The energy or the liveliness of the picados is not the same at the classical guitar.

Ilgaz Benekay : So we may say it?s solidness or the way they play it wild and strong attracted you...

Mutlu Torun : The new trend which started after Paco de Lucia brought up new artists like Vicente Amigo, Tomatito?s recent style, we may say it is softer than before.

Ilgaz Benekay : Do you like Rafael Riqueni?

Mutlu Torun : So and so. Their sound which is similar to jazz attracts me more. I started enjoying jazz since 10 or 15 years. It was late. Also I studied a bit.

Ilgaz Benekay : Moreover, as far as I know you worked with Pepe Rodriguez, Rafael Nogales and Nino Ricardo.

Mutlu Torun : Well, at the peak of my admiration for flamenco, I was still studying at the Academy. In 1968, at a summer season, there used to be two ships ? Mediterranean and Black Sea. They had a round trip. I took one of them and went to Barcelona. I gathered the addresses at the cities in Andalucia. I have taken the addresses of the luthiers from Irkin Akt?ze. Look, Irkin also has played flamenco. Irkin used to play classical and flamenco with his friend Zifring Behrend.

Ilgaz Benekay : So Irkin Akt?ze is also one of the oldest ones?

Mutlu Torun : Faz?l Avrak, Irkin Akt?ze, R?za Ba??ko?lu ? they belong to same age.

Ilgaz Benekay : So we have to interview also him. Oh yes, Paco Pena has given a guitar as a present.

Mutlu Torun : Yes also I met with Paco Pena. Then I went down to Madrid after Barcelona. The sound of a guitar of Mario Excudero in my ears all the time. I was lookin for it. I searched the stores n Barcelona and then Madrid. There, I saw Jose Ramirez. Afterwards I went to Andalucia. I was trying to find a guitar. That?s whay I have gone there. I visited the workshop of Migel Rodriguez in Cordoba.

Ilgaz Benekay : Yes, I know you had a Migel Rodriguez.....

Mutlu Torun : That?s right but I haven?t bought it then. I bought one later in 92. I entered the workshop. So just I was looking at the guitars, a boy came up ? short, very much alike Sava? (Sava? ?ekirge). I learnt that his name was Pepe ? Pepe Rodriguez. He played a while and very well. When I was there, I knew only the guitarists only from the recordings which existed in Turkey. Of course, the king was Sabicas. Meanwhile, Serranito had also made a recording. It was his first record. Also Paco de Lucia has played there. I have never listened to him before. Pepe told me that he was Serranito?s student. Honestly, he was playing so well, his pulgar technique was perfect. I asked him if he wants to teach me. So he was playing and I was writing them down as notes. It lasted about 10 days, two hours-a-day. I wrote the scores of some falsetas. For example, I was asking him to teach me Bulerias, I was having difficulty to understand the tempo so he was telling me to start with Soleares. The same tradition exists in Turkish music also, if a student asks me to teach ruhisar form, I tell him to learn the rast form first. Same as this? I can tell Pepe Rodriguez taught me more than anyone else about flamenco. He is now a classical guitar teacher at the Cordoba Conservatoire. When we have met, he was studying there. Though he was playing classical guitar, he was playing flamenco as well because he was living in Cordoba. His pictures were hanged on all the walls of the workshop. This is how I started. Then I went to Granada. I stayed at Sevilla for a very short time. There was a gipsy guitarist. I remember I took a few lesson also from him. And I returned to Madrid. In one of the guitar shops I learnt the name of Rafael Nogales. I knocked his door and took lessons almost one week. I was going to his studio everyday because I was writing everything down. Maybe it will be clearer if I tell how they teach. Usually the teacher plays and the students imitate him. It would take a long time if I did this way. But I had the ability to write notes, dictate what he played so Rafael Nogales told me I learn in three or four days what the others learn in three or four months because I was writing notes. He was pleased with me as his student. Later on Ber? also went to him. He was a guitarist who playing with many colors. You should find Ber? also. Then one day I watched Nino Ricardo on stage. After the concert, I went backstage. He wrote down the price for the lessons. It was four-fold of the standard prices. Anyway, I took lessons. He told me his son was a dancer. He has also come to Turkey. Finally, I bought a guitar from Jose Ramirez and returned. The end of this adventure...

Ilgaz Benekay : But I know well that whatever you do or concentrate on you have spared a piece of your soul to flamenco. We would like to learn about something from the mouth of a master, a thing which is always brought up in conversations. It has been always told that the phrigian pattern which is used in flamenco has a very close relation with the forms of Turkish music. Could we take some information from you about this statement?

Mutlu Torun : Yes same thing everywhere, I mean there is a scale we call as phrigian and there are altered notes of this scale. Let?s take E. G sharp is there within the E scale. And G sharp is usually used in ascending melodies. But if we take G sharp as unharmonized so it is A flat. This is same as our bozlaks. G is the third, A is the fourth. We can say, taking the fourth degree as flat is actually same with our k?rdi form. For example, if we are practicing on A scale, D must be flat. Such as D being flat in bulerias. We can compare these in another way. If we think about h?zzam in tempered system, on B scale we will say B, C, D, E, D, B and we will change it as B, C, D, Eb, D, C, B. We will think this only for these four notes. In h?zzam after B, C, D and E, F sharp follows. However in flamenco before E flat, they play F natural because within granadinas F natural is an altered note. So it is the lowering of the F sharp which is the fifth of B. Same as Solaeres if you think of in E phrigian. The B note has become B flat.

Ilgaz Benekay : Have you ever investigate where does such a form come from?

Mutlu Torun : No. To find out where it comes from is the specialty of the misogynists. What is taught in today?s theory system in Turkish music is the integrity of the fourth and fifth. The forms evolve in this way.

Ilgaz Benekay : Well, while exploring flamenco history, if we symbolize it with Umayyad?s Zyrap, then we can say these forms have a very deep influence on it. In many conversations I had in Spain, I heard that they still investigate where the 12/4 time system comes. They are unable to find the exact origin. In this sense, do you have information about the origins Turkish music forms?

Mutlu Torun : I do not know exactly. But such a thing exists both in spiritual music and folkloric music. Rhytmically it has two characteristics. At first, they have delayed measures. And there are longer measures. So 12/4 is nothing comparing to flamenco. I do not know which lies under this whether Arabs, Persia, Byzantium, Greek or Turks. If you ask me, all of them have its share. So it is impossible to say one or the other is related or not related.

Ilgaz Benekay : You mean all these sounds which move everybody?s hearts have been filtered through history and today they are used in a simplified version.

Mutlu Torun : Aren?t we the mixture of these races as man?

Ilgaz Benekay : Today in Turkey many students educated by yourself either adopts music as their hobies or some of them takes it as their profession and I am one of them. What do you advise us or what can you recommend to those who will deal with flamenco?

Mutlu Torun : Actually just from the beginning I have always thought what you?ve asked.. In each moment, I study on flamenco one thinks how this will be possible in Turkey. Under these circumstances in Turkey, this is all we can do or play but the case is different out there because the man lives there. Same as the ones who play baglama here... So it is really difficult to reach their technique but I will try to tell my opinion as a person who is involved in Turkish music. You are always mixed up between your affairs same as a man who has many lovers. Such things exist in different cultures. There are marriages or mergers. Sometimes it yields many good results or sometimes ends in bad results like arabesque music in Turkey. So on my behalf, I think it?s better to receive flamenco or work on flamenco in accordance with this country?s conditions and roots. It is totally an open sea. If a student wants, after he starts with flamenco, he can integrate it with jazz. In short, the musicians are free in each sense. He can lead any road he wants. Of course, there are things to advise related to his studies. There are technical matters. Studying to obtain a level of performance and to keep it is a must. That?s another thing. Other than this, there is its philosophy and the knowledge. Real flamenco players play their own songs whereas the guitarists who play flamenco in Turkey play others? pieces. Then to do your own piece, you need the theory. But if you will do it closer to Turkish music style then you have to know the Turkish music also.

Ilgaz Benekay : So you say what is ideal for the flamenco performances in Turkey is to be a mixture of the Turkish music and flamenco

Mutlu Torun : That?s possible. About this mixture issue, there is one story which everybody knows. In a meeting a woman, who is beautiful but whose brain does not work well, and a man, who is ugly but intelligent, meet each other. They decide to get married. Woman wishes to have children smart as his husband but beautiful as herself. But her husband worries if they are born as ugly as himself and idiot as her wife. So what I try to say, in such mixtures anything can come out. All the roads are free. While I say always the good one stays but the bad one vanishes in time, it is a fact that the good one should be noticed by others to survive. There are people who sit at home and play but who cannot bring out anything. Nothing can be achieved without effort. There is one thing I learnt through my experiences as a teacher; there are some people who sit and concentrate on one thing and achieve everything in just one or two trials but these people get lazier in time since he has achieved so easily. Also there are others who studies hard. But the one who achieves easy yet studies, he becomes successful.

Ilgaz Benekay : This is what is written by your hand writing on my first note book. Also i remember you have given me to read the book about flamenco of Pohren. You have always been my leader. We thank you for this interview. Thanks for sharing and everything.

Mutlu Torun : I thank you.

September 6?th 2005, Istanbul